1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,500 Once you've created a prototype, the next step is to validate it with your 2 00:00:04,500 --> 00:00:08,300 audience and to do. So you need to get out of the building, getting out of the 3 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:12,500 building, means that you're going outside of your office to go talk to your 4 00:00:12,500 --> 00:00:16,500 customers, the answers to your questions, the 5 00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:20,800 validity, or the invalidity of your assumptions, and hypotheses are 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,800 not going to be found within the confines of your office. You need to 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:26,800 get out and you need to talk to customers. 8 00:00:27,300 --> 00:00:31,000 In the, in the lean ux approach, we want to do that. 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:35,900 Like we do everything else as a cross-functional collaborative team. And 10 00:00:35,900 --> 00:00:39,600 so we use a technique called collaborative Discovery collaborative, 11 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,200 Discovery is taking the research process and 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,800 democratizing out it out to the entire team. So you've got Engineers 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,900 designers product managers content strategists in the field 14 00:00:51,900 --> 00:00:55,800 together, talking to customers conducting interviews meeting 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:57,000 users of the product. 16 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,900 Real life. They're observing your users in context, 17 00:01:01,900 --> 00:01:05,900 what they're doing, how they're doing it, what hacks? They put 18 00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:09,900 together to solve the problems that they have today. They're 19 00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:13,300 interviewing them. So they get an understanding of why 20 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:17,800 this is important to them and why they're working hard to solve these problems. And 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,600 then by collecting evidence and showing them the 22 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,700 Prototype you get an opportunity to have a back and forth conversation about 23 00:01:25,700 --> 00:01:26,800 your proposed solution. 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,800 Ian for the problems that they're having. 25 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:36,800 And the question really about this is why send the whole team at we've got user researchers or we 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,900 can hire user research firm. And the answer is this first is that 27 00:01:40,900 --> 00:01:44,300 you're covering more ground faster. If you take a team of 28 00:01:44,700 --> 00:01:48,600 six people pair them up and send them out into the field for half a 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,600 day. They can cover a lot more ground and talk to a lot more people 30 00:01:53,300 --> 00:01:56,400 bring that insight to the team faster. 31 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,100 And synthesize it faster, and therefore build that shared 32 00:02:01,100 --> 00:02:05,500 understanding because everyone's talking to customers and then coming back in 33 00:02:05,500 --> 00:02:09,900 together and debriefing each other on what they learned in the field. So you 34 00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:13,800 don't have to wait for a report to be written. You don't have to wait for a report to 35 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,700 be read or digested or discussed or proved you're 36 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:21,600 going out as a team. You're discussing your hypotheses with potential customers. 37 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,200 You're coming back in together. 38 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,600 You discussing what you found in your building that shared understanding that shared empathy for your 39 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:29,500 target audience. 40 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,600 When you're going out into the field to have these conversations as a team, there are 41 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,700 three questions that you initially set out to answer especially during the product 42 00:02:39,700 --> 00:02:43,100 Discovery and concepting phase 3 questions 43 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,900 that you looking to answer the first is this is there a need or opportunity in our 44 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:52,800 Persona exercise, we defined specific needs for 45 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,500 our Target audiences. What are their pain points? 46 00:02:56,500 --> 00:03:00,800 Where's there an opportunity for us to build something to make their lives easier to make them more 47 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,200 productive, more efficient. That's the first thing we need to 48 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,900 verify does the need exists? Is there an opportunity for a product 49 00:03:08,900 --> 00:03:12,700 in this space? If there isn't, then we should stop working and figure out what 50 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:16,800 needs are actually there that we can solve. And we do that through observations 51 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,900 watching people doing their jobs or doing the things that we think we can 52 00:03:20,900 --> 00:03:22,900 help them with and interviewing them. 53 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,800 If you verify that there is a need and an opportunity, the next thing you want to find 54 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,900 out is whether your target audience values your proposed solution. 55 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,900 So we've identified that the customer exists, the customer does have this pain point or 56 00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:39,600 this need 57 00:03:40,700 --> 00:03:44,800 We have a proposed solution, would a solution actually be 58 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,900 valuable to someone or are the hacks that they've created to solve the problem with the 59 00:03:48,900 --> 00:03:52,700 tools that they're using today. Sufficient, and perhaps our 60 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,900 proposed solution doesn't really add enough value to get them to switch, how they're currently doing things 61 00:03:57,900 --> 00:03:58,300 today. 62 00:03:59,700 --> 00:04:03,700 And this is done against through interviews for the qualitative side but also through measured 63 00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:07,900 Behavior where we launched a prototype or an a/b test or 64 00:04:07,900 --> 00:04:11,900 some approximation of the experience that allows us to see customer behavior in 65 00:04:11,900 --> 00:04:12,600 real time. 66 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,900 If you validated that there's a need and that people value your solution, 67 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,500 the last thing you want to test is whether people can actually use your solution. This is where 68 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:27,900 usability comes in but we don't get to use ability until we've actually proven that. 69 00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:30,300 There's a need to build this product 70 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,600 Once we've proven that, there's usability that there's need for the 71 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,900 product we bring in usability and let people test it out and see if they can figure out how to 72 00:04:39,900 --> 00:04:43,900 perform the tasks at a screen level detail. And again we do that 73 00:04:43,900 --> 00:04:47,800 through interviews and usability testing, one of the big questions that 74 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,100 comes up. When we talk about user research is, 75 00:04:53,300 --> 00:04:57,900 do you listen to what customers say and how do you translate what they say? And the quote that people use 76 00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:01,000 is attributed to Henry Ford. He didn't actually say it. 77 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,500 But the quote is, if I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster 78 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:06,100 horse. 79 00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:11,500 But instead he built a car. And so the question is, what are we listening for? 80 00:05:11,900 --> 00:05:15,600 When we do this country? When we have this conversation and we do these interviews and this user 81 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,500 research as a team? What are we listening for? 82 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:24,800 Because again, if you ask people what they want they would say something like I need a faster horse. And so there are 83 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,800 different types of needs that we need to listen for 84 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,900 and then dig into as researchers in the field to understand what our customers really 85 00:05:33,900 --> 00:05:37,500 need. And I like to illustrate this point with a story from a friend of ours, 86 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,300 who used to do research on on Caltrain in the Bay Area 87 00:05:43,100 --> 00:05:47,600 for years and she was sitting next to this. This was years ago, she was sitting next to a 88 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,300 passenger on the train. 89 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:53,900 And she asked her what was in her purse and the woman pulled 90 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:57,800 out her purse, all the stuff, including this beat-up old CD case that was 91 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,900 falling apart. There was that was, you know, you have CDs, kind of 92 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:05,700 falling out of it. It was broken. It wasn't really doing its job really well. And the 93 00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:09,900 woman said to our friend, the researcher she said she said what I really need 94 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:11,200 is duct tape 95 00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:17,900 What would make this easier for me, is duct tape and what she was expressing their was her 96 00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:21,200 expressed need in her mind. Duct tape 97 00:06:21,900 --> 00:06:25,700 was going to solve the problem for her, with this particular CD 98 00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:26,200 case. 99 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,800 And so the question that we use and user interviews to dig beyond the expressed needs, 100 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:33,900 duct tape, is the equivalent of the faster horse. 101 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,900 The question that we use to dig beyond the expressed need 102 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:44,500 is quite literally. If you had that feature, if you had that thing, 103 00:06:44,700 --> 00:06:46,000 what would it let you do? 104 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:52,800 And so we asked her are from the research or Astor. If you had duct tape, what would it 105 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,500 let you do? And she said, well, if I had duct tape, I could fix my CD 106 00:06:56,500 --> 00:06:58,700 case, it would carry more CD's. 107 00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:03,800 And I would have the an easier time transporting. My music 108 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,400 with me and swapping it out based on what I'm going to be doing today 109 00:07:07,500 --> 00:07:11,000 or later tomorrow, you know, 110 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:15,700 to better be able to carry my music with me. And so what we're hearing there are the 111 00:07:15,700 --> 00:07:19,600 implied needs. We've dug in one layer deeper from the expressed 112 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,700 needs from duct tape. To what I really need is an efficient and effective 113 00:07:23,700 --> 00:07:24,100 way. 114 00:07:25,500 --> 00:07:28,700 To carry my music with me and be able to swap it out. 115 00:07:30,300 --> 00:07:34,800 Based on mood event activity, whatever it is that we need. Now, the 116 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,600 challenge and this is where creative 117 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:42,800 Innovative product, people have the most fun and can 118 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,600 be the most creative is to dig for the latent needs. 119 00:07:47,100 --> 00:07:51,900 The late need here is the, is the the real 120 00:07:51,900 --> 00:07:55,700 underlying pain point that is being solved by the 121 00:07:55,700 --> 00:07:59,800 expressed need the duct tape. The real underlying need is that is that 122 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,800 our passenger on the train here? Needs an efficient way 123 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,300 to carry a lot of music to transport it back and forth 124 00:08:07,300 --> 00:08:11,400 to change it out at will and to be able to accommodate different situations. 125 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,700 And so by asking that question, if you had that feature, 126 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:16,800 what would it let you do, and 127 00:08:17,100 --> 00:08:21,900 Deeper, and deeper and deeper. And then being creative Innovative product people. 128 00:08:21,900 --> 00:08:25,600 We could potentially extrapolate the need for something like an 129 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:26,200 iPod. 130 00:08:28,500 --> 00:08:30,800 So you go from duct tape as the expressed need. 131 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,400 Down to the late need of a better way to carry music. 132 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,100 And if you're smart, creative and motivated, you could potentially come up with something like an iPod, nobody, 133 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,900 she never would have said. I need an iPod. 134 00:08:46,500 --> 00:08:50,800 But an iPod actually solves her solution and that's our job as creative product. People 135 00:08:50,900 --> 00:08:54,500 is to listen for the expressed needs to dig into the implied. 136 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:58,600 Needs to understand the latent needs and then to creatively 137 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:00,700 solve for those latent needs 138 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:04,900 and so, when you're out in the field, 139 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,700 and you're speaking to customers and you're developing this audience, 140 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,800 You need to know how to conduct the interview and how to conduct the research so that you get the best 141 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,600 information out of it. Now it's it takes practice and it's hard work. So 142 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,900 initially the first few times that you do it, you're not going to be terribly successful. But the more you practice 143 00:09:22,900 --> 00:09:25,900 with these tips, the better you'll get at it. 144 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,900 The first tip is this talk to one person at a time? 145 00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:35,900 Get that person's opinion, give that person you're full of your 146 00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:39,500 full attention and don't let them get distracted by other people 147 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:43,300 participating in the conversation. Talk to one person at a time. 148 00:09:43,700 --> 00:09:47,900 The second tip is to Define your roles. You're going to go out 149 00:09:47,900 --> 00:09:50,400 and collaborative Discovery in pairs. 150 00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:56,900 When you go out in pairs, you need to Define your roles who's going to be the interviewer, and 151 00:09:56,900 --> 00:10:00,900 who's going to be the note-taker one person does. All the talking, 152 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:05,400 the other person takes all the notes. It's very difficult to conduct an interview 153 00:10:05,900 --> 00:10:07,500 and capture notes at the same time, 154 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,800 when you finished asking questions, if the interviewer you can turn to your Note Taker and 155 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,600 asked, do you have anything further and if they do, you can swap places, 156 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,900 but when you go out and make sure that the roles are defined and you know who's going to do the talking and he's 157 00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:23,000 going to do the note taking 158 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,700 before you go out, know your goals. What do you want to learn? When you go out, you can't 159 00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:33,900 learn everything in a single interview, let's focus the interview on what we want to 160 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:37,100 learn and what questions we want? Answered ahead of time. 161 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:42,800 Write an interview guide, be sure that you've as a team, you've discussed 162 00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:45,500 what we're going to learn today. What we're trying to learn today. 163 00:10:47,900 --> 00:10:51,800 In the future, everything is perfect. 164 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,700 That's what people think in the future. I will exercise more in the future. I will eat 165 00:10:57,700 --> 00:11:01,800 healthy and so we need to distinguish the reality 166 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,900 from the beautiful future. We can distinguish from between what people do and 167 00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:10,900 what people think they'll do. And so we always want to 168 00:11:10,900 --> 00:11:14,900 talk to people about something they've done in the past as opposed 169 00:11:14,900 --> 00:11:18,900 to asking them to speculate about the future. If you ask people to 170 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:22,700 speculate about the future, they will tell you a much more idealistic View. 171 00:11:22,900 --> 00:11:26,800 Of their behavior and their usage patterns. If you ask them to tell you a story 172 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,900 about something that happened in the past, you'll get details about exactly how they 173 00:11:30,900 --> 00:11:34,500 behaved. And the question that we use, the the 174 00:11:34,500 --> 00:11:38,900 syntax that we use for that is tell me about the last time you did 175 00:11:39,300 --> 00:11:43,500 X, whatever it is. Tell me about the last time you purchase something online, 176 00:11:44,700 --> 00:11:48,900 Tell me about the last time you had to buy a car seat for your infant. 177 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,100 And then let them tell you that story. 178 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,400 Because in the future, they may do it differently but talk to them about how they've done things in the past that's an 179 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,100 indicator of actions that they've actually taken. 180 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,700 When you're out in the field, get excited to hear things, you don't want to hear. 181 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,600 People will call your baby ugly and that's okay. You want to find this 182 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,900 out as soon as possible that your idea is bad, that your hypothesis is wrong. 183 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,700 That your design doesn't work. The sooner you can find this out. The sooner, you can make it better 184 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,800 and the easier it is to fix because your investment levels at this point in the conversation, 185 00:12:27,900 --> 00:12:31,200 our paper pen, maybe some lightweight, prototyping, 186 00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:36,800 So if you're wrong, that's great, let's find that out. Now before we invested, 187 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,400 millions of dollars and months of people's time to build a product that is broken. 188 00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:44,500 This is the time to hear when things aren't working. 189 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,900 Disarm politeness training. This is this is a phenomenon in the u.s. 190 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,800 if you're conducting This research abroad it may or may not work as well. But definitely in the US people 191 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,800 want to tell you what you want to hear. They want to be nice to 192 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:01,100 you. 193 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,400 Especially if they know that you're somehow personally involved in this 194 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,400 project. So if you tell people, hey, I designed this, what do you think 195 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,600 they're much more likely to say? Oh, it's nice. I like it. 196 00:13:15,500 --> 00:13:19,800 Terrific, great work, right? So whatever you need to do to distance 197 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,600 yourself from the work to allow people to, actually be 198 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,200 honest with you, even if you have to to, 199 00:13:27,700 --> 00:13:30,800 to hide the fact that you work for the company that created this, 200 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,300 Anything you can do to separate yourself. 201 00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:40,200 From the thing that you're testing will provide you a much more accurate answer. 202 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,900 Probably the hardest thing to do when you're interviewing people is to ask open-ended questions. This 203 00:13:47,900 --> 00:13:51,600 is a skill that's built up over time and as you practice that you get 204 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,800 better and better and better at it. When you ask a closed-ended question, for 205 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,600 example, have you ever bought anything online? 206 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,700 The answer could be. Yes, the answer could be no, but the conversation stops. Right there, it 207 00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:08,600 ends. And the onus is on you as the researcher to, then 208 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,600 start it back up again, and our goal is to get stories out of these people. So, instead of 209 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,500 asking a question, like, have you ever bought anything online? 210 00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:20,800 Ask the question. Tell me about the last time you bought something online 211 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,800 Now even if the answer is, I've never bought anything online. You can 212 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,900 then continue that conversation. Why? Tell me about the tell 213 00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:33,300 me why you don't buy anything online. But asking, open-ended questions, 214 00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:37,600 creates a dialogue. Creates a conversation and keeps the storytelling 215 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,300 going. Which is our goal is to get people to tell us about their 216 00:14:41,300 --> 00:14:45,900 experiences. And this again is one of probably the hardest thing to do in this list and the 217 00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:47,400 thing that takes the most practice 218 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,800 If you're doing more talking than your research 219 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,900 subject is you're doing it wrong, ask your question, and 220 00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:02,800 then be quiet. And let the person talk there might be some gaps 221 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,400 of awkward silence in there. But if you leave it 222 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,800 Without talking inevitably, the other person will fill in that Gap, give them 223 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:11,800 the opportunity. 224 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,700 To answer your question and to fill in that awkward silence. Listen and don't 225 00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:21,900 talk just ask the questions then hang back it's 226 00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:25,800 also important to encourage but not influence. So if you get 227 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,600 very excited about something that somebody's telling you because they're praising your approach or 228 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,900 something, they can people can sense that and they can tell if that's what you want 229 00:15:33,900 --> 00:15:37,300 to hear and they're eager to please. And so they'll tell you more of that 230 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,900 instead use generic encouragement like okay, 231 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:42,900 tell me more. 232 00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:47,800 can you elaborate on that to get people to give you more but not indicate whether or not you think 233 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,600 this is confirming or invalidating some of your 234 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:52,200 thinking 235 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,900 Another technique to use is called saying it back. Now, this may 236 00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:03,600 sound a bit childish, it may remind you of talking to children at times, 237 00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:07,400 but it's a technique that again, with practice works really well at 238 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,700 continuing the conversation. And essentially what you're doing here is you're saying back the 239 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:15,800 last thing that your research subjects said to you. So, for example, if you 240 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,900 ask them, tell me about the last time you bought something online, they would 241 00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:23,900 say, well, I bought some computer speakers on Amazon and you would say, oh, you 242 00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:25,000 bought some computer speakers on. 243 00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:30,400 And now say and typically they'll continue the conversation. Yes, I bought computer speakers because my old ones 244 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,800 broke and they were 15 years ago. They were 15 years old. Yeah, they were 15 years old. I 245 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,900 bought them on a bought the computer. And, you know, I finally upgraded the computer. Oh, you upgraded 246 00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:42,800 the computer? Now sound, it sounds like against a childish thing to do, 247 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,700 like you're talking to a five-year-old. But again, we'll all you're doing there is, you're 248 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,700 essentially asking them to continue the conversation with you and that's the whole purpose of these 249 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:55,400 interviews is for the conversations not to stop and for them to continue to 250 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,700 You the story so you can build this holistic view of the 251 00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:03,300 challenges that your customers face in your particular domain. 252 00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:09,900 The last tip for customer development, is to ask for introductions. If you find people 253 00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:12,900 who fit your persona profiles, 254 00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:16,800 is a really good chance that they know other people just like 255 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:17,100 themselves. 256 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,500 And so the end when you're when you're finished, you say, thank you very much. This is a terrific 257 00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:27,300 conversation. Do you know anyone else who could help us with this 258 00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:31,700 research and more than likely, they know somebody else. And that, that warm 259 00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:35,500 handoff, that introduction goes, a long way to getting people to accept your 260 00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:39,900 invitations, to have research conversations with them. So, always 261 00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:43,400 ask for introductions at the end, especially the more 262 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,300 Niche that your research subjects. Get the harder. It is to 263 00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:48,900 find good. 264 00:17:49,100 --> 00:17:51,800 It's that people know each other in the same domain. 265 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,300 Ultimately it boils down to this, it's a conversation, you're not 266 00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:01,500 interrogating. These people, you're giving them a platform to tell you a 267 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:05,700 story about how they do their job, how they perform a 268 00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:09,800 certain function, how they entertain themselves, whatever it is, and 269 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,600 give them that Podium. Let them listen to you and get those 270 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,700 stories out of them. Have that conversation with them.